The Day After: Predictable Reactions All Around

Well, well, well, what have we today? Quite a few emotions swirling around out there in the blogosphere. Fink is self-righteous, Harry is gloating (and hungry), Teitelbaum is quiet (for now), and Tzig is self-muzzling (for once).

I’ll get to my understanding of what happenedย  yesterday at a later time. First this. The gist of my response to them all is: Why can’t we just all get along? Ha, ha, just kidding.

In a more serious vein, I have to ask, what’s it to you? Haredi Rabbis have gathered THEIR followers and laid down the law as they understand it. Again, for people who follow their guidance. What’s it to you????

So you have another opinion? Wonderful, then live by it, raise your children by it and attach yourself to like-minded people. Why do you feel the need to viciously attack and besmirch good and decent people, based on half-baked boich svaros and incomplete knowledge of what was actually said? Rabbis Fink and Maryles will admit to not being Haredi, so why not focus on fixing your crowd instead of constantly harping on Haredim?

You do realize how foolish it is to attack a certain group using standards they specifically reject? Do you spend your time criticizing Chilonim for not covering their hair? How about Satmar for not saying Hallel on Yom Haatmaut? When the source of a specific behavior is a different worldview, to criticize every manifestation of that worldview as if it is some new-fangled idea out of left field is absurd and shallow.

Let me reiterate the obvious. Modern Orthodoxy operates under different guidelines then Haredim do. Period, end of story. To keep on criticizing developments in the Haredi world using Modern Orthodox values and thought processes as a yardstick is nothing more than continuously patting yourself on the back. “See, look how great MY way is and how backward/stupid/wrong THOSE guys are”. If that’s what helps you sleep at night, then kol hakovod, but except for that lovely choir you’re preaching to, it is quite tedious.

If Haredi society were violating its own principles, then there would be room to point out the perceived hypocrisy. But considering that everything that happened last night is in line with longstanding Haredi thought and practice, to attack once again from the modern orthodox perspective is misleading, old and tiresome.

We get it: you are open-minded and educated, while Haredim are fanatical monsters from the Dark Ages. The asifa just confirmed those deep-seated biases. You are happy as you are and Haredim are happy as they are. Okay, so can you now move on? The continued assault on a community that makes no bones about the fact that it has a different approach to life than you do does nothing more than arouse the sneaking suspicion that you ain’t so sure of the righteousness of your own path.

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72 thoughts on “The Day After: Predictable Reactions All Around

    • Why wouldn’t I? Because I’m one of those un-educated Haredim?

      The tone of your post is one of the great man who understood everything until he was mislead and is now back to being the holiest one among us, including Yidden of Mesiras Nefesh to whom neither I nor you can hold a candle to..

        • Snark works sometimes doesn’t it?

          It is based on your words and the fact that you feel the need to apologize to your flock for your “foolish” recommendation.

          BTW, why apologize? I’m sure they used their own judgement regarding the asifa and yours made not an iota of difference. Isn’t that what you preach? That all should think for themselves?

      • I don’t know what you think, but a lot of charedim do read my blog and they enjoy it. And I didn’t tell people to go. I supported the idea of the Asifa as it was presented to me at the time. Is it too much to ask for accuracy and nuance? Please?

        • I enjoy your blog as well when your posts aren’t attacking people you know little about.

          On the contrary, I believe you are failing to grasp the nuance here. You ASSUMED that when you were told that the internet wouldn’t be banned that it would be permissible for recreational/educational purposes.

          All you were told is that it wouldn’t be banned. Which, nuanced, it isn’t.

      • FIrst of all, you keep harping on this idea that I know little about the charedi world. I know plenty. I have two charedi brothers and plenty of friends in that world. So please stop saying I don’t know anything about the charedi world.

        Second, do you really really believe that the message you heard last night from Rav Segal, Rav Wosner, the Zibo Rebbe et al (not Rav Waxman and not Rav Matisyahu) was the same message the Asifa began with? The ‘we can’t live with it, we can’t live without it”? Clearly it wasn’t.

        • And I have friends among the Sephardi community and would never lay a claim to understanding their approach to life based on that.

          My point is that you have never heard the other side of the story. Were you as intellectually curious and truly fair as you purport to be you would seek out someone who really understood Haredi hashkafa in general and on timely topics in particular before you thought you had it all figured out and went on the attack.

          Believe it or not Haredi hashkafa is extremely well thought out and has withstood the test of time. I’ve rarely come across someone who has invested time with an open mind to truly understand the Haredi world and what makes it tick and not come away with a true appreciation for what it has to offer.

          As to your second point, absolutely. The we can’t live without it was referring to the areas of life where we truly CAN”T live without it, namely business. Nuance, my friend, nuance

      • Again you are being unfair. I DO understand the charedi hashkafa. I have studied it, kind of lived it, and now reject it. Try me. I’ve learned all the hashkafa seforim, read all the books, to say I don’t know it or understand it is simply untrue.

        I could have moderated for frumteens 10 years ago.

        • The fact that you mention moderating a Frum website ten years ago makes it crystal clear that you were not Haredi and if yes very far to the left. 90% of haredim, those who adhere to haredism don’t moderate forums TODAY, forget about ten years ago.

          I will accept that you are familiar with Haredi hashkafa and have rejected it. Therefore it makes no sense for you to attack a world based on those principles each time anew. Move on.

      • Okay. Clearly you can’t read. I did not say that I DID moderate frumteens 10 years ago. Ten years ago I did not have an email address and know nothing about the Internet. I said, my hashkafa 10 years ago was just like the Frumteens moderator. He is hardcore charedi yeshivish. I am surprised you never heard of it. Whenever I want to get my blood pressure up, I read his stuff. It is the epitome of yeshivish hashkafa.

        I am SURE you will love it: (It has been relaunched as) http://www.jewswithquestions.com/

        • You’re right, I misunderstood what you wrote, my apologies.

          That being said would you dispute that you were quite to the left of mainstream Haredism?

      • Maybe a tad. But I was able to hold my own in most yeshivish settings. I wasn’t at risk or anything. Most of my friends and chavrusahs from 10 years ago are still in learning.

  1. The attack is against the misleading campaign. The intent was to clear. We want to help people use the Internet responsibly. The result was the Internet CANNOT BE USED RESPONSIBLY.

      • I didn’t “attack” anyone. I gave my subjective analysis of an event. If it means nothing to anybody I guess you would have to explain the over 10,000 unique visitors that read it (so far – in 18 hours).

        • Of course you attacked, you attacked the Haredi lifestyle of Daas Torah. These are your words:

          The one glimmer of hope is that people will stop relying on rabbis and edicts to make all their decisions and do their thinking for them.

          I never said that your words mean nothing, just that you should feel no need to apologize. People who think like you make their “own decisions” and as such you bear no responsibility as to their conclusions.

      • My apology was for believing the Asifa would be what I was told and writing a persuasive post urging people to support the Asifa. I was wrong, so I apologized.

  2. Wow. Wow. You completely missed the boat here. The asifa was billed and advertised as for ALL spectra of Judaism (remember the “k’ish echad b’lev echad”?) as they advertised it’s for “Klal Yisrael”. So, either they lied, or you just don’t get it. I suspect it’s both.

    They didn’t speak about “chareidim only”. The spoke about ALL of klal Yisrael.

    • There was no attempt to alter their principles for the MO. Nobody expected them to attend. So let’s not get all cute and semantical all of a sudden.

      • Are you kidding?? They advertised for ALL of klal Yisrael. Oh, except for the MO. And Chabad. They’re not part of klal Yisrael. Right??

        It really is that simple. You and your chareidi cohorts seem to think that only your brand of Judaism is good. WRONG.

        • I love Chabad btw. As for MO, weel you guys changed what was accepted for thousands of years and went on your own. You are definitely part of Judaisim but many of your hashkafas aren’t, in our opinion. Which is why we make asifas for our own. You are welcome to join but don’t expect us to change our principles.

      • I think that charedism is a bigger aberration than modern orthodoxy. Who is more similar to the tannaim, amoraim, rishonim? They believed in secular knowledge and working for a living.

        • I’ll be happy to debate this point with you but it’ll take all night… ๐Ÿ™‚

          Most Haredim work today as well. Especially Chasidim. Even Lakewood admits that it is an Horaas Shaah. Therfore work vs. learn is not a fundamental issue of hashkafa, but rather an emergency procedure.

      • It WAS a horaas Sha’ah. It has become part and parcel of the hashkafa. I know chasidim work (less than they used to) but I was talking about yeshivish. Clearly chasidus is not authentic. It was invented out of thin air 300 years ago.

        • The supremacy of Torah was always part of the Hashkafa (until the MO took it out). Learning all day is still horaas shah and may very well change as time goes on. Lakewood is only a small part of the Haredi world.

          As to your comments about chassidus, are you being sarcastic or do you truly mean that?

      • There are more people learning today than ever in the history of klal yisrael. What is the need for this horaas shaa?

        And I am being 100% serious about chasidus. You are familiar with the Gaon’s opposition to this novel form of judaism?

        • Oy oy oy. This comment says it all.

          If you have this opinion of chassidus to which millions of yeriem and shleimim have adhered to, and base it on the Gaon, disregarding all that talmidim of the Gaon (from R’ Chaim Volozhiner through the Chafetz Chaim, through today’s Litvishe Gedolim)have said about Chassidim, shows me two things.

          1) You are clueless as to Chassidishe hashkafa and Haredi history
          2) You were WAAAAAAAAAY over to the fringe when you were Haredi. There are almost NO haredim today who oppose Chasidim based upon the Gaon’s hisnagdus.

          This is exactly my point. You know VERY LITTLE about Haredi hashkafa and history but feel nonetheless qualified to judge it. You lived a certain way, rejected your upbringing and now seem to think that your personal struggles were against Haredism in general. Newsflash: it wasn’t.

      • Once again, you missed what I am saying.

        First of all, I am saying this as myself now, not as myself 10 years ago. What I say today carries little weight in understanding who I was 10 years ago. I mean, if a BT said something today would you be able to conclude what kind of person they were 10 years before?! Of course not.

        More importantly, I did not say chasidim were not yerei shamayim or that they were not orthodox. I said that their lifestyle is an aberration from what was prior to them. TO support this, I brought the Gaon. I could have brought 100s of historians, but I brought the Gaon. It wasn’t to say they were illegitimate, it was to say that they were vastly different from orthodox Jews prior to the Besht. This is fact. It has no relevance to whether or not they are frum or accepted today. It is ONLY relevant to the issue that they have a completely different hashkafa than the tannaim, amoraim, and rishonim. That is all. If you can’t admit that, then you have a lot of learning to do.

        • You say one thing and then change it and complain that I don’t understand you. You made a statement about Chasidim. How am I supposed to know that you “(d)evolved” toward that position?

          Regardless, here are your exact words:

          Clearly chasidus is not authentic. It was invented out of thin air 300 years ago.

          Now you say that by “not authentic” you meant an aberration. Please be clearer in your language, “not authentic” means illegitimate more often than not. Watch what happens when I call MO “Inauthentic Jews”.

          As to the crux of your point, wrong again. Which is why I reccomend you get your ideas about chassidus from chassidim not from their opponents. (as an aside, Rabbi Rackoff-Rakeffet once said that you cannot be a Zionist without learning the Satmar Rav’s sforim, not THAT”S an open mind.) NOTHING and i mean nothing, was the BESH”T mechadesh that didn’t have a solid mekor in Gemara and Poskim. In fact, what he mostly did was re-emphasize aspects of Avodas Hashem that had been forgotten. In many ways, similar to the mussar movement. Was it a change from the previous years in Eastern Europe? Of course. But out of thin air? Absolutely not. I challenge you to show me one significant thing Chasidim do or did that does not have a mekor from earlier sources.

          I reiterate my earlier point, the fact the you bring up the Gaon’s hisnagdus when even his talmidim steer clear of it just shows how out of left field you are. Viewing CHasidism from the perspective of the Gaon is the equivalent of viewing R’ Yonasan Eibschitz ZT”L from the perspective of the Yaavetz ZT”L. Bemufla mimche al tidrosh.

          BTW, The Gaon demanded no one be meshadech with chasidim. The Rav ZT”L RJBS, was an eineikal of chasidim. Do make sure never to make a shidduch with his family.

          • I’m not spending any more time on this issue. Do the research yourself. You can start on Wikipedia.and Jewish Virtual Library. Everyone knew it was an innovation and pretending otherwise is just silliness.

            • Can’t back it up, can you? When the going gets tough, the tough…… go back to the beach.

              The point of my blogging is not to convince you or other bloggers, it is to show objective observers that there is another side to the story other than the one-sided hackery bloggers put forth.

              It is also to demonstrate that while bloggers such as yourself put forth a demeanor of thoughtfulness and fairness, when challenged you resort to talking points or run away.

              Yeira hakahal veyishpot.

        • What part of Chasidus is invented? Kindly provide an itemized list of new um…minhagim that Chasidim introduced, please.

  3. Granted. Then why imply (subtly or otherwise) that those who fail to heed the asifa message are chutz mi-machanah?

  4. In a more serious vein, I have to ask, whatโ€™s it to you?
    Forgive me for jumping in late and possibly being repetitive as I’ve only read the post and not the comments. IMO you are being a bit harsh and unfair. Bloogers like Rabbi Fink and Harry don’t bother with Hiloni mores because they too feel no connection to them. But #1 they ARE Orthodox and would “like” to respect TKs and get along with a wide range of Shomrei Torah
    #2 When rabbi Wachsman starts the Asifa reading from an Iggeres from the Rambam that basically says that anyone not abiding by the asifa hakhlotos is out of K’lal Yisrael and has forfeited their share in the world-to-come you expect maaminim in Olam HaBo ike Rabbi Fink and Harry, of whatever stripe, to take that lying down???

    • My question is twofold:

      1) Why no positive writing about Haredim?
      2) Why no critiques of the Modern Orthodox?

      As to your second point. Shema menah libo nokfo, if a MO Rabbi said that not saying Hallel on Y”A meant I have no Olam Haba, I wouldn’t give it a seconfd thought. Why do they care what Haredi Rabbis say??

  5. WADR the relatively non-judgmental stance of MO rabbis would never allow them to pronounce expulsion from Olam Habah on any Jew for any reason. A Kanoi Moderate is an oxymoron. Your question is purely hypothetical. And i reiterate, I wouldn’t call it Lebo noikfo as much as they would LIKE to respect out Gedolim.

    • “the relatively non-judgmental stance of MO rabbis would never allow them to pronounce expulsion from Olam Habah on any Jew for any reason.”

      Chaza”l and R’ Yonah do. Are MO Rabbis perhaps more compassionate?

      “And i reiterate, I wouldnโ€™t call it Lebo noikfo as much as they would LIKE to respect out Gedolim.”

      I’ve seen no evidence of that at all. All I see are attacks against truly great men by people who are of much lesser caliber.

      • MO Rabbis are not more compassionate, they are less judgmental. Not the same thing and not necessarily a good thing.

        If their published writings are any accurate indication The Berdichever and the Apter Rov were less judgmental than many of the Rabbonim who spoke at the asifa. Were the Berdichever and the Apter Rov more compassionate than Chazaโ€l and Rโ€™ Yonah ?

        I am well aware of what the Brisker and Satmar Rovs ZY”A said about Rav Kook.(YM”S ???) But I am also aware of what the Imrei Emes of Ger said. Was he entitled to an opinion? Was he himself a “kal” as a result ?

        • My friend, let;s not mix hodu mit kush. Defending individual Jews klapei shmaya? Sure. I sincerely hope every single Jew goes straight o Gan Eden, no exceptions. R’ YC Sonnenfeld said that he had no problem with Ben Yehuda having a greater cheleik than him in olam haba, but in this world he would fight him tooth and nail. The Satmar Rav himself is known to have helped EVERY JEW who came to his door including avowed Zionists.

          We are referring to public policy, and the Masters of Chasidus were as fierce as anyone today when it came to protecting the mesora (probably more).

          Not being judgmental is praiseworthy when it comes to individuals. NOT to hashkafas. Chazal were VERY judgmental hashkafa-wise, see how many times they wrote ain lo cheleik laolam haba or raui lehashlicho leclavim etc. etc.

          • Your saying that being meorer dinim on an individual is less of an avla than on large swaths of the Nation? That’s a big khiddush based on what I’ve seen in seforim but perhaps you are right.

            • You are not being morer dinim by putting in place gedarim, even with consequences. On the contrary ceshyesh din lemata, ayn din lemale.

              R’ Wachsman didn’t keep people out of Olam Haba, he just mentioned the R”Y about those who are poresh min hatzibur. To All: DO choose to join the tzibbur and have a wonderful lechtige olam haba!

              • DO choose to join the tzibbur and have a wonderful lechtige olam haba!

                As mentioned there are ample Khaza”ls about those who lose their khelek.

                There is also one about how the default setting of every Srulik to have a khelek. However, anyone hawking stamped tickets straight in is IMO a snake oil salesmen. No one has a guarantee. ื—ืชื™ืžืช ื”ืชืœืžื•ื“ that lists several kings and several commoners who lost theirs occurred long before you and I got here. Who can tell which if any of us would stand up to Khaza”ls withering, demanding scrutiny? ืื ื™ืืžืจ ืœืš ืื“ื “ืื™ืŸ ืœืš ื—ืœืง . ืœืขื•ืœื ื”ื‘ื” ืชืืžื™ืŸ ืœื•. ืื ื™ืืžืจ ืœืš ืื“ื “ื™ืฉ ืœืš ื—ืœืง ืœืขื•ืœื ื”ื‘ื” ืืœ ืชืืžื™ืŸ ืœื•. ื”ื›ืœืœ “ืืœ ืชืืžื™ืŸ ื‘ืขืฆืžื™ืš ืขื“ ื™ื•ื ืžื•ืชืš”. This is what I find very disturbing about many people today. No existential angst, just smug certitude that membership in the right clubs has their tickets stamped, that their belonging to a holy group will absolve them of any individual responsibility.

                • Personally, I follow what the Lubavitcher Rebbe taught: That the reason that the Golus is taking so long is that G-d is arranging things that EVERYONE, including oso haish, will merit olam haba.

                  Hashem is our father, he will find a way to get us all in, by hook or by crook, see King Menashe. However, we must do out part, haomer echte veashuv….

  6. Hap… You give dr rekefet too much credit… He has not time , brains or will to learn satmar sederem
    Bray… The same gerrer rebbi said very very harsh thongs on r kuk

      • The emri emes in the letter of 7 iyar 5681 writes that rak is ืดืžืจืื” ืœื• ืคื ื™ื… Misunderstands kabala and refuses to comprimise to make peace with the old yeshuv though he did also say some praise also

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